If you like Stereo systems this might be for you

[baltobernie]

What difference does that make?

[fiat218]

What difference does that make?

Daniel is the expert, he can explain, I was just assuming

[baltobernie]

Current flowing in a circuit is determined by the load presented. Loudspeaker wire length is essentially meaningless.

[Daniel]

Current flowing in a circuit is determined by the load presented. Loudspeaker wire length is essentially meaningless.

This has less to do with current flow and more about timing although there maybe be some very subtle resistance/
Impedance variables between 2 different speaker wire lengths. Yes the ohms load may be almost the same if you
have wire that's reasonably close in length but when you look at this from a timing perspective this adds another
issue when addressing audio systems. The greater the distance between the speaker lengths the more power is
lose as opposed to the shorter. Timing aspect just for simplicity sake I'll paint a simple mental picture. If you took
2 water hoses connected them to the same facet both hoses are identical in every way but length, the Left hose is
10 feet long the Right is 20, which hose would we see water flow from first?

Most people reading this probably wouldn't consider themselves an audiophile but if you were to run wiring for a
system why not go the extra mile while your at it, whats the worst that can happen. I like the way my speakers
and systems that i build sound using this simple rule i read about years ago and have applied it since. Many
experts in this field would agree but just as many may disagree as well or say that its a waste of time. This issue
may come down to how much you care about music, sound quality and how far are you willing to go after the
best quality for your efforts.

[baltobernie]

We can hear very small differences in time between music (or predator ) sounds arriving at our left and right ears; as short as one to three milliseconds (three zeros). Stereophonic recordings were revolutionary when first introduced, allowing the listener to imagine not only the width but depth of the music source. I'm sure you've experienced the dramatic change in soundstage as you move loudspeakers around in a room. That 0.001 - 0.003 second threshold is easy to demonstrate. Sound travels pretty slowly.

Electricity, on the other hand, travels really, really fast. It travels through one foot of wire in about 2 nanoseconds (nine zeros). If you want to be able to hear the difference in left/right loudspeaker wire lengths, you'll need to have one of them six zeros longer than the other.

Anything less than 100,000 feet of wire difference between left and right loudspeaker lengths is inaudible.

Regarding the power issue; again, a non-starter. Decent speaker wire has a resistance of 10 ohms per kilometer, so the amount of wire differential required to alter the flow is also gigantic.

[Daniel]

If you want to be able to hear the difference in left/right loudspeaker wire lengths, you'll need to have one of them six zeros longer than the other.

what do you mean? in length or are you talking about the distance in feet or did you mean milisecs?

[Daniel]

We can hear very small differences in time between music (or predator ) sounds arriving at our left and right ears; as short as one to three milliseconds (three zeros). Stereophonic recordings were revolutionary when first introduced, allowing the listener to imagine not only the width but depth of the music source. I'm sure you've experienced the dramatic change in soundstage as you move loudspeakers around in a room. That 0.001 - 0.003 second threshold is easy to demonstrate. Sound travels pretty slowly.

Electricity, on the other hand, travels really, really fast. It travels through one foot of wire in about 2 nanoseconds (nine zeros). If you want to be able to hear the difference in left/right loudspeaker wire lengths, you'll need to have one of them six zeros longer than the other.

Anything less than 100,000 feet of wire difference between left and right loudspeaker lengths is inaudible.

Regarding the power issue; again, a non-starter. Decent speaker wire has a resistance of 10 ohms per kilometer, so the amount of wire differential required to alter the flow is also gigantic.

OK so you made some interesting points but I disagree with couple of them, what your saying based on my experience
and i'm going to assume you never ran very long speaker wire runs to compare your theory. If you have it would be
noticeably different within a couple hundred feet at 100.000 feet this would present huge problems for an amp powering speakers. If you broke this down to a shorter distance let's say 10,000 feet your still going to have lots of power lose.
Your numbers on ohms for speaker wire loss need some adjusting that figure can vary a lot based on the type and
quality that is used.

I just did a quick web search and found a website that explains some of this better then i can.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/tech ... e_right/av

: Selection of the appropriate wire gauge is important to system operation.

A cable that’s too “light” will result in amplifier power being wasted due to the series resistance of the cable. It will also result in the loss of low-frequency performance due to a degraded damping factor.

On the other hand, a cable that is too “heavy” is unnecessarily awkward and costly. In general you want to keep your line losses (“insertion” losses) below 0.5 dB (though some engineers would argue this is still too much loss).

The impedance of the load (speaker), the length of cable, the cable gauge, and to less extent the output impedance of the amplifier all play a role in how well the signal gets from the amp to the speaker. Essentially, distance and the impedance of the loudspeaker are the two factors to consider when determining wire gauge.

The following table shows the approximate signal losses in speaker cable for a 100-foot amplifier-to-speaker distance at various impedances:

10 AWG: 4 Ohm = .44 dB, 8 Ohm = .22 dB, 16 Ohm = .11 dB
12 AWG: 4 Ohm = .69 dB, 8 Ohm = .35 dB, 16 Ohm = .18 dB
14 AWG: 4 Ohm = 1.07 dB, 8 Ohm = .55 dB, 16 Ohm = .28 dB
16 AWG: 4 Ohm = 1.65 dB, 8 Ohm = .86 dB, 16 Ohm = .44 dB
18 AWG: 4 Ohm = 2.49 dB, 8 Ohm = 1.33 dB, 16 Ohm = .69 dB

As you can see, an 18-gauge cable with a 4-Ohm speaker at 100 feet results in 2.5 dB of loss. A loss of 3 dB would mean that half the amplifier’s power is being dissipated by the wire, not the speaker!

The following information comes from JBL. It shows some suggested wire gauges for different distances and different impedances.

• 10 feet, 4, 8 & 16 Ohm load = 20 AWG
• 25 feet, 4 Ohm load = 15 - 20 AWG
• 25 feet, 8 & 16 Ohm load = 20 AWG
• 50 feet, 4 Ohm load = 10 - 15 AWG
• 50 feet, 8 Ohm load = 15 AWG
• 50 feet, 16 Ohm load = 15 - 20 AWG
• 100 feet, 4 Ohm load = 10 AWG
• 100 feet, 8 Ohm load = 10 - 15 AWG
• 100 feet, 16 Ohm load = 15 - 18 AWG
• 150 feet, 4 Ohm load = 8 AWG
• 150 feet, 8 Ohm load = 12 AWG
• 150 feet, 16 Ohm load = 15 AWG
• 200 feet, 4 Ohm load = 5 - 8 AWG
• 200 feet, 8 Ohm load = 10 AWG
• 200 feet, 16 Ohm load = 10 - 15 AWG

Some engineers would argue these figures are too conservative, and in “real-world” applications a heavier gauge is needed for the best sound. Whether everyone agrees with these figures or not it should at least be understood that distance and impedance play a major role in how the wire reacts.

Further, in high power applications it may make sense to get much more “stingy” when it comes to power loss. For example, a “small” 0.5 dB loss at 1000 watts is still a loss of more than 100 watts of power! In the end, it’s probably best to shoot for higher grade, lower gauged wire in almost any circumstance for best results.

[baltobernie]

You're going off-topic. No, I've never run speaker wire for hundreds of feet, and neither will any car stereo installation ... ever. My post was to refute the notion that unequal lengths of loudspeaker leads have a detrimental effect on the listener. They do not. It's simple arithmetic. The 100,000 ft. calculation was merely to put in layman's terms an example of the speed of light vs. the speed of sound.

Of course one should use the proper gauge of wire for any electrical activity, whether it's an extension cord for a power tool, or a loudspeaker installation.

[Daniel]

I'm not trying to argue with you bernie but your statement sounded as if it was an absolute fact.

Anything less than 100,000 feet of wire difference between left and right loudspeaker lengths is inaudible.

and the ohms rating you posted as well but that varies a lot from speaker wire gauge to speaker wire gauge, if i
got into speaker wire brands and designs this conversation would become more complex to understand but for the
sake of sticking to the "Topic" I'm not going to. You sound set in your ways and I'm not going to try and unset them.
I believe the link I placed disagrees with you, contact prosoundweb if you want set them straight I'll stick to what I think
works.

[Daniel]

The final product, I had to take some photos of my buddies system forgot to do so when I wrapped it up. Someone
must of pushed against the grill clothe cover for the sub I might have to build a new design to solve this problem.
Anyhow the sound quality is amazing each tweeter and mid has a independent speaker cable 12 total 6 tweeters, 5
Midrange Speakers and 1 12" Subwoofer, all are equal length wires running to the amps. I plan to copy this system
in my own car.

[fiat218]

I can send you my car and you could do this too

[dmwhiteoak]

Jim, if you keep sending your car away your not gonna have much driving time before the snow flies

Daniel, you make some very good points on audio sound and I will take this advise when I put my system back in the car. But as Andy stated, these are acoustically challenged passenger compartments especially with the top down. Any thing to help that would be a plus. Thanks for the info.

[fiat218]

Jim, if you keep sending your car away your not gonna have much driving time before the snow flies

Daniel, you make some very good points on audio sound and I will take this advise when I put my system back in the car. But as Andy stated, these are acoustically challenged passenger compartments especially with the top down. Any thing to help that would be a plus. Thanks for the info.

TRUE LOL

[Daniel]

I can send you my car and you could do this too

I cant take on any more projects till get caught up I'm sorry running behind as it is but thanks for the interest.

Jim, if you keep sending your car away your not gonna have much driving time before the snow flies

Daniel, you make some very good points on audio sound and I will take this advise when I put my system back in the car. But as Andy stated, these are acoustically challenged passenger compartments especially with the top down. Any thing to help that would be a plus. Thanks for the info.

My Buddy Danny received a older Toyota Corolla as a gift from a family member, it was in good shape still ran fine
but no stereo. He owns a 2010 Chevy Silverado Truck that is his main Vehicle and a 70 Dodge Dart as a weekend toy
so he wasn't really interested in spending any money on the Toyota. He called me up and asked what was the cheap-
est Radio I could get him that had a USB plug on the front and 2 speakers "Cheap Cheap" he insisted!. I put together
some no name brand swap meet crappy radio and a pair of cheap sony speakers for under 80 bucks from 1 of my whole
salers but i talked him into ( really had to twist his arm) spending 20 plus more dollars on a second pair of speakers for
the rear. First we played the radio with just the front pair then later on listen with all 4 speakers made a vary noticeable improvement having speakers front and rear. Now this radio was crap no power not the greatest sounding system but
when you factor in road noise, engine noise etc having a little more power and speakers hitting you from the all 4
corners that makes a big difference.

The type of speaker wire used can effect sound quality a lot more then people realize, I've tested speaker cables
and found wire with the same gauge but differ in design can change the sound on a system. In 1997 I ran
Monster Cable 16 Gauge vs Phoenix gold 16 gauge on some home speakers I built to compare the sound quality it
was noticeable better running the Monster Cable wire. Looking at both wires you wouldn't think one would have
an advantage over the other. Over the years I've installed and tested many products out of all the speaker cables
I've ever used on a projects Analysis Plus has been the best IMO. They have this design/theory that oval speaker
cables are superior to standard shaped wire but they are expensive. So what I tried on the Benz was a flat
speaker wire by JSC on the Mids and a more conventional 100% oxygen free pure copper 18 gauge wires for the
Morel Tweeters.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002Z ... UTF8&psc=1

http://www.analysis-plus.com/prod_main.html < good cables vary expensive


I must of done something right this car possible landed me contract deal designing speakers for diamond audio
we will see what happens, I played the car for the owner of the company and showed him some of my design on
paper.

My best tip for any spider owners would be run 4 speakers 2 front 2 rear add a Amplifier doesn't have to be powerful
just decent 35 to 50 Watts RMS x 4. You should be able to hear the music just fine with the top down at that point
without maxing out your amp. Solder on your connections this will provide a little better sound quality, speaker lengths
should be the same, match your speakers like I mentioned before.

[steviebsf]

That is some great info. thank you all for your obvious hard work. Nice to see an intelligent, spirited conversation with fact supported and well thought out ideas... Bravo!

The biggest sound improving change under the worst sound conditions (freeway, top-down) in my experience, was going to component speakers and aiming the tweeters directly at you (or just adding tweeters works too). I have mine mounted in the front of the map pocket near the top. With the wind and engine noise mucking up the mid and low frequencies, having the clear highs pointed directly at you and in close proximity keeps the sound together enough to be crisp and enjoyable.

Daniel uses 6 tweeters which probably sounds awesome but I think the tweeter significance is lost by some of the other conversations, as informative and helpful as they are.

just a reminder for your consideration...
Rock On!