Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

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wizard124
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Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by wizard124 »

OK, call me a skeptic :? :?

I understand the combustion and power benenfit of colder intake air. I've read where owners have cut through their wheel wells, piped intakes, etc.

BUT, has anyone measured the temperature difference or recorded the improvement provided by these efforts? Suppose at 40mph on a 70F day (perfect top down conditions), you rig two accurate temperature sensors. One at the front bumper and the other at the air filter to measure the difference. I would be suprised if it was more than 10 degrees.

What say you?
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81SPIDERMATT
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by 81SPIDERMATT »

interesting .... my guess is on a 70 degree day that difference could be as much as 80 degrees
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Redline
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by Redline »

I ditched the UFO that comes on the twin IDFs and mounted foam filters. It gobbled and snorted and sounded great (if a bit over-the-top). It didn't run any better. In fact, it was worse, especially as things got warm under the hood. Perhaps I could have worked around it with adjustments, but I put the UFO back on. Quiet, but still with a snarl, and it really seems the two forward-facing inlets have some benefit. Too bad it's a pain in the ass to check the oil. :D

Purely subjective.
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MrJD
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by MrJD »

Go read the plethora of articles dyno testing cold air intakes.
wizard124
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by wizard124 »

MrJD wrote:Go read the plethora of articles dyno testing cold air intakes.
Educate me. Do you have a link? How can dyno testing replicate the natural condition of air flow through the engine compartment at highway speeds? I doubt this testing is done in a wind tunnel.
131
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by 131 »

Many years ago after a trip to the coast for a weekend on the beach, I found a complete lobster shell, interesting combination of green and black. I decided to take it home, and not wanting to stink out the car I placed it in the engine bay in front of the battery. When I got home 2 hours later I retrieved the lobster, it was bright orange, thoroughly cooked.
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by MrJD »

wizard124 wrote:
MrJD wrote:Go read the plethora of articles dyno testing cold air intakes.
Educate me. Do you have a link? How can dyno testing replicate the natural condition of air flow through the engine compartment at highway speeds? I doubt this testing is done in a wind tunnel.
lol... its not ram air, its just pulling air from an area away from the engine. And if you wan't to be really picky, you always have a huge fan blowing on the front of the car to feed the radiator... and in this case, the intake with cool air (comparatively speaking).

I just typed in Integra CAI dyno and piles of things came up. Here is the first one i clicked.

http://www.importtuner.com/powerpages/0 ... egra_gs_r/

That being said, I am probably still going to go with a lunchbox style filter... just for the carb sound. :)

trying to find one of these to import... :p

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wizard124
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by wizard124 »

Stay with me on this....I haven't done an engineering calculation like this since college :shock:

I went to bed thinking about my original question, "What is the temperature rise of the air in the engine compartment?). I started thinking about the worst case scenario. First assumption is that all energy in the gasoline is converted to heat. We know that combustion is not 100% efficient. The second assumption is that all this heat is 100% transfered through the front radiator, raising the temperature of the air passing through it. Last assumption is that only air through the radiator can be sucked in by the engine.

Again this is worst case. We know combustion heat is removed by the exhaust gases, removed by the engine oil system, radiated out by engine block heat, etc.

Then I looked at the performance of our cars. Cruising down the freeway at 60 mph getting 20 miles per gallon (3 gallons/hr). Looking on-line, gasoline has the specific energy of 120 MJ per USGal. We are consuming .05 gal/min, producing 6000KJ/min of heat.

I am not home to measure but I estimated our radiators to be about 2 feet by 1.5 feet. Approximately .335 square meters.
At 60mph this equates to 1,609.32 meters per min. So there is about 539 cubic meters of air going through the radiator every minute.

Here is the engineering lesson :idea: dT = Q/Cp x m
Really important to make sure all the units match or the calculation is wrong.

dT is the change in Temperature (C)
Q is the heat produced (KJ/min)
Cp is the specific heat (air in this example; KJ/Kg x C). This is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of a material by one degree.
m is the mass (again air through the radiator)

Q was estimated to be 6000KJ/min

Cp for air at 68F is 1.005 KJ/KG x C

m takes some calculation. air density is 1.205 Kg per cubic meter. We have 539 cubic meters per minute. So, the mass of air through the radiator = 649.64 Kg per min

dT = 6000 / (1.005 x 649.64) = 9.2 degrees C

One last conversion gives us 16.5 degrees Fahrenheit. This worst case example estimates the temperature of the ambient 68F air to rise to about 85 degrees inside the engine compartment.

Researching further, from Wikipedia:
Gasoline (petrol) engines
Modern gasoline engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of about 25% to 30% when used to power a car. In other words, even when the engine is operating at its point of maximum thermal efficiency, of the total heat energy released by the gasoline consumed, about 70-75% is rejected as heat without being turned into useful work, i.e. turning the crankshaft.[1] Approximately half of this rejected heat is carried away by the exhaust gases, and half passes through the cylinder walls or cylinder head into the engine cooling system, and is passed to the atmosphere via the cooling system radiator.[2] Some of the work generated is also lost as friction, noise, air turbulence, and work used to turn engine equipment and appliances such as water and oil pumps and the electrical generator, leaving only about 25-30% of the energy released by the fuel consumed available to move the vehicle.

If this Wiki article holds true, then about 38% of heat produced transfers to the radiator :!:

This would result in (.38 x 16.5F) a temperature rise of only 6.5F, raising our engine intake air to just 75F!

Again, using the web. This theoritical rise in temperature from 68f to 75F results in a power reduction of only .8%! :shock:
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by 131 »

Plenty of actual measurements online.

http://www.mvfri.org/Contracts/Final%20 ... es%201.pdf

I see by the time I'd added this file someone had posted it below.
Last edited by 131 on Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by aj81spider »

That's some impressive calculation. However your calculations don't really agree with my experience. After a long drive when I open the hood the air coming out of the engine compartment is significantly hotter than 6.5 degrees above ambient. I suspect that some of your assumptions are wrong and would speculate that problem areas would be:

> The air flow in the engine compartment is not uniform, so there is not a complete changeover of air on a constant basis. The flow will be high in parts of the compartment and low in others. The low airflow areas will capture more heat and have a higher differential. This would be exemplified by FIat changing the air cleaner intake position in winter versus summer.

> I suspect that the flow through the radiator is largely pushed under the car - based on the shapes I would speculate that the air in the engine compartment is pretty stagnant.

> The metal in the engine compartment (block, etc) heats and radiates that heat into stagnant air in the engine compartment.

> The air flow through the radiator is not at the speed of the car. The radiator is not really open backed - there is an engine behind it obstructing air flow (and forcing the air under the car). I suspect that the air flow through the radiator is significantly lower than the speed of the car. This results in less air flowing and thus more absorbtion of heat by the air that does flow.

> Routing cold air to the air cleaner is a pretty common design modification in high performance cars. (think your ram air muscle cars) - There would be no need to do this if the temperature rise was only 6.5 degrees.

A quick google found the paper linked to below. This indicates that uner hood temperatures rise a lot and differently depending on where you are in the compartment.

http://www.mvfri.org/Contracts/Final%20 ... es%201.pdf
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vandor
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by vandor »

> I would be suprised if it was more than 10 degrees.

You think the air flowing through the radiator only gets heated up by 10 degrees (F)?
REALLY?
Have you ever put your hand behind the cooling fan when it's on? It's usually quite hot - and that's with the car idling, ie. the engine using very little gas thus producing very little heat. Going down the highway at 60-70-80 mph will use a lot more fuel and produce a lot more heat that the radiator has the get rid of.
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wizard124
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by wizard124 »

It is great to have this discussion, what forums are all about.

Restricted airflow through the engine bay is certainly a valid point. Sure, the air is hot when one feels the heated, stagnant air once the hood is opened. Ram air increases performance but that isn't what the original question is about.

I questioned the benefits of a cold air intake. Obviously, the opinion by many is the air is very heated under the hood. So, I took the time to read through the links referred above. In the import tuner link. the performance gain was less than 1.5%.

I took an analytical approach and came up with my estimates of a 6 to 16.5F rise in transient air under the hood at 60mph. Reading through the mvfri.org report, they start their tests at outside temperatures of no less than 22C (72F). Their Figure #2 depicts temperatures inside the bay of a minivan at 60mph. One of their sensors measures the temperature of the air below the hood. A look at the graph, before the engine was turned off and the car at rest, shows 34C. This shows, in that case, the rise in temperature is no more than 12C (22F); they didn't specify the ambient temperature.

Not a huge temp rise. I would love for someone to run this experiment for me on our cars. :)
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by MrJD »

wizard124 wrote: In the import tuner link. the performance gain was less than 1.5%.
its highly variable... again there are TONS of posts out there. The Acura RSX was famous for responding well to modifications. Here it gets nearly 20whp from a cold air intake! :)

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=342394
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by vandor »

> the performance gain was less than 1.5%.

That is quite a lot. Once you have made hi-po mods and optimized the engine on a dyno it would be hard to find something else that gives you 1%. So 1% nearly free additional HP is a good thing :-)
Cooler air also makes the engine less likely to detonate.
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Re: Cold Air Intake, any measured differences?

Post by majicwrench »

Of course, cold, denser air needs more fuel, so rejetting your carb is in order....

I'm with the op on some of this, people go way overboard trying to get cold air. I have never tested it, but can't imagine the air underhood being stagnant, there is a LOT of air moving thru radiator, under car, around wheels, heck stick your hand out the window.

I just might stick my thermometer with the long wired probe in the Fiat and check if it ever quits raining out.

Keith
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