3-point belt conversion on an early Spider

[70spider]

I moved this over from fiatracertracer's post "seat belts".
Instead of starting a new thread, I just have one question: How to convert an early (1970) Spider to a 3-point seat belt? I have a thought of something like this: http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.ne ... 2891892366 in combination with seat belt guides from AutoRicambi http://www.autoricambi.us/product/RI1-4 ... T-124-all/ . Has anyone done this before? My wife and daughter would like the 3-point belt .

My Spider has what looks like factory anchor points in the back by the rear wheelwells. I'll post a pic when it gets light outside.

[aj81spider]

I updated my 74, which only had 2 point belts, to 3 point. Described how I did it in this thread:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... &sk=t&sd=a

Basically I welded the mounts from a later car into mine. If you do this you need to change your seat back to a later seat back so the space to mount the retractors is there, as well as the seat belt guide. I put a package shelf in, so didn't have to worry about that.

[btoran]

i did the same, having brackets from a donor car welded into place to hold the retractors. as mentioned in the other thread, i also replaced the upper seat back with newer version (with the built-in slots for the belts to go through) and added 2 point rear lap belts for the kiddies.

[spiderrey]

I simply took the three point belts out of my 71 euro spider and put them in my 70 USA spider.

[phaetn]

My '74 had a hole and reinforced bracket already in the floor pan. This was where -- originally, a 2 point belt was anchored. Then there was a bolt hole by the outside rail, where an L shaped bracket made the original belt turn to go over the driver or passenger's lap; finally, there was another bolt hole in the transmission tunnel where the female end of the belt attached.

I ended up using that original hold in the floor pan to anchor a three point belt's retractor mechanism, then a bracket mounted on the outside rail, and then the female end of the belt to the transmission tunnel, much like the original. Then I attached a belt guide to the seat, so the shoulder section of the belt went over the seat back. It's not ideal, because in the event of a lot of forward force the seat back would take the brunt and quickly bend, and the floor pan itself can only take so much force. Still, it's better than just a lap belt where your face/head hits the dash even more quickly since there's no resitance at all...

For the driver's side I used the same mounting points, but have an OMP racing harness that seems like a four point, though it uses a Y belt at the back so it mounts in just one spot.

Pics:

Mounting point from under car.


Retracter mount (floor pan) and side mount (see orange labels on belt)


Passenger belt. I now have a guide in place so it doesn't slide/fall off the seat back when it's undone.


Driver's 4 point harness.

The ideal solution would be welding the bracket and getting a new rear seat (to accomodate the mounting point and the retractor) and upholstery that has the cut-outs for the belt, but it's tricky and expensive.

The three point belt I bought from Seatbeltplanet.com, as well as Grade 5 strength mounting hardware. The racing harness I had to order through a local speed shop.

Cheers,
phaetn

Oh, forgot to mention, I also ended putting in lap belts for the back so the kiddies could go for rides (see vids). Threaded mounting holes were already there, but tapped to make sure they were clean:

[70spider]

Here is what the rear looks like:

I was considering using the ones in the corners for the 3-point.
Thanks for all the ideas so far, I am glad it is a doable solution. I might put the roll bar back in for saftey as well, although it is hideous.
phaetn what size bolts fit the back mounting points?

[Exit98]

There's a ton of posts about 3 point belts for our early cars. The knock on using the floor points for mounting the 3 point belt is that in the event they come into play the downward pressure on the shoulder causes potentially serious injury. Originally that's how I was going to go but never did.

My intention is to install the roll bar I have then attach the upper portion of the 3 point to the roll bar. This is apparently a common practice on open jeeps. I've also seen at least one spider with this arrangement. A guy named Pope, used to post on here did it this way. I saw it at the LI FFO and it looked good. There's plenty of room to mount the upper point above shoulder level. I emailed him about it but he never answered. But it looks straight forward.

I agree with you about the looks of the roll bar. I really don't want to put it in, but in the interests of safety, particularly in regard to the 3 point belts I'll probably do it this winter.

[phaetn]

My intention is to install the roll bar I have then attach the upper portion of the 3 point to the roll bar.

That's definitely the way to do it -- belts should always be mounted higher than the shoulder if possible. It's just not possible yet with my setup. While I'd like a roll bar, I bought the car to have my kids in the back for short jaunts and I don't want to risk their head injury against the bar.

Everything in life is a compromise and this is one I'm settling for though others may not.

what size bolts fit the back mounting points?

To be honest, I can't remember off hand. But it is the stock size of bolt that came with the belts. Looking that up, it says 7/16th. I think all seatbelt bolts are standardized in North American for width and pitch, including our cars, even though everything else in the vehicle is metric. Looking at the site again, I might have bought the Grade 8 mounting kit -- I'd have to dig up receipts to be sure...

Cheers,
phaetn

[70spider]

Thanks for the input, lots of good ideas.

[njoconnor]

Bumping this post as part of a response to skadaddy's pm to me last night about the 3 point belt installation. I'd promised to post these last summer after I finished the work, but, y'know, stuff happened. Good stuff upthread, so consider these as one more possible idea for anyone else looking to get 3 pointers in their Spiders.

I used belt kits from seatbeltplanet, and had the retractors set up for "360 degree" operation; standard, most only work in a vertical (door post) mounting configuration. Since I was using the factory mounting points on the rear wheel wells, I needed the retractors to work at a more horizontal angle. The biggest niggle I have with this belt set up is the need to pull the belts out slooooowly when belting in. The retractor likes to lock up in this orientation, but it also feels more secure once belted in.

First pic is a test fit of the right side rear panel and the belt kit on the wheel well anchor point. It shows the trimming done to the trim panel which allowed the retractor to operate/swivel:



This pic shows the entire back seat with panels in place and lap belts installed. The shoulder belts in their seat guides can be seen, and note how the belt has a slight twist from retractor to guide. This is partly why (I believe) it's necessary to slowly pull the belt. But..it works, and is quite comfortable for longish trips.



I was worried about function once I installed A/R's windblocker, but the belts slide right under the blocker and through the seat guides with no issues or interference. Some thoughts:

Use the cable versions of the inboard seat belts; I used the belt/holster, and removed the holsters: not enough clearance for the seats to slide fore and aft.

Recommend metal seat belt guides; the hinged plastic ones I bought (looked neat!) snap off their hinges way too easily when tilting seatbacks, etc.

Overall, I'm quite happy with the set up.Happy to field questions, or post additional pics of the completed arrangement.

Neil

[Exit98]

Neil,

First pic is a test fit of the right side rear panel and the belt kit on the wheel well anchor point. It shows the trimming done to the trim panel which allowed the retractor to operate/swivel:

Nice work. A whole different approach. You mentioned the "wheel well anchor point". What's that? You have an early Spider. It looks like you bolted it to the wheel well. Did you support it in the back? Can you give us a little more info on this?

Also, I'm assuming there is no issue with the top and it framework or you wouldn't have made it work, but it sure looks like it would be pretty busy back there with the top down. And how do you fit the boot?

[njoconnor]

Not long after getting the Spider home, I was refreshing memory by reading the original owner's manual. I was lucky; I had both the European edition, as well as the smaller," North America" insert (with its own wiring diagram!). The European version had a drawing of the car's safety belts, including two shoulder harnesses which appeared to be anchored on the inside forward aspects of the wheel wells. Hmmm, sez I, wonder if there's mountings under that plastic?

Once I had the interior down to bare metal, I disocvered, yes, there were two welded threaded anchor points right where the drawing located them, and they accepted the standard seat belt mounting bolts. After that, it was just finding a way to get a set of three point belts with a retractor configured to the mounting point's orientation.

The anchor pints, then, are factory, and required no work from me from the underside. They were located under the plastic cover which covers wheel well and extends behind the outer rear seat cover (where I mounted new speakers in the PO's old speaker openings). There was a small black plastic button marking the anchor points; popped it out, bolted in the retractors, and then set about trimming and adjusting until everything played well together.

Doug's right in his observation: it's quite "busy" back there. The top proved not to be an issue; raises and lowers without interference. I was worried about the windblocker; worries did not pan out. The boot goes on fine, but I did lose the hold down strap openings when I trimmed up the panel for the retractor. I'm reworking the boot hold downs this year to using fastex buckles on a short strap. Otherwise, no issues. Works better than I had a right to hope, I'm thinking.

I'll check tonight when I get home from work; I think I have a picture of the bare, unadorned mounting points in the "just in case" digital photo pile I created during the restore work. I'd be a little surprised if 70's and 71's did not have the same points, but, a quick look at the wiring diagrams suggests year to year consistency was not a FIAT requirement....

[njoconnor]

Here's a relatively clear shot, after I'd applied the primer to the interior floor:



Where you see the antenna wire "exiting left", is where the shoulder belt anchor point is (the antenna is in there to keep it out of the way, until I could thread a new cable through the back bulkhead, after the paint and insulation were done). You can see the metal reinforcing ring around the antenna wire; inside are the seatbelt bolt threads. Just as it came from the factory, and if in Europe, would have had non-retracting shoulder belts anchored here. There's an identical fitting on the driver side.

Right below that, one can make out the outboard rear seat belt anchor; the inboards are seen in the "t" shaped raised panel in the center. The two other holes on either side of the T are PO drilled holes to hold a rather bad set of seatbelts....and on the right, used to hold up a perforated metal strip which held up the generic exhaust. Both of those holes are covered/sealed now.

Hope this helps. It does bring back some memories.....

Neil