Seat Belts

[dreavis]

I have searched on the forum and read numerous discussions on the conversion to a 3-point seat belt from the lap belt found in my 77', but I still don't feel like have a straightforward answer to this issue.
I would like a safer system for when I drive my family around, so 3-point, 4+-point harness, etc. - whatever works.

Does anyone have a simple solution for this conversion? And what should I expect to pay for this if I don't do it myself? I've talked to few mechanics and they all give me a blank stare. Thanks in advance.


BTW, the best and worst thing about this forum are the same - I get a ton of ideas on what I could/should/might/would love to do to my car.

[Exit98]

Well you can take a look at these links:

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... seat+belts

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... seat+belts

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... seat+belts

Basically you have three choices. First, find a later parts car and cut out the shoulder belt supports from the bulkhead and weld them on to your bulkhead. This will also require changes to your rear seatback

Install a roll bar and anchor the shoulder belt from the floor to the rollbar.

Install the three point belt using the floor as the anchor point. Generally as you will see from the links above this isn't recommended but is the choice some have made.

Good Luck.

[njoconnor]

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29033

This thread (at the end) has a picture of the factory shoulder harness anchor points in my 72 during its rehab. The European versions had non retractable shoulder belts anchored to the rear wheel wells. I found the threaded anchors, and installed customized retractors fro seatbeltplanet (customized = retractors which will work at any angle, not just vertically). Doug's prior comment in the thread of it looking busy is very well taken; it is more than a tad crowded back there, with top down and windblocker mounted. But the safety factor is primary for me, and we've adapted to the long slow pull to get the belts fastened.

I don't know if the 77's like yours had the anchor points or not; have to pull the plastic panels and see.

BTW, I replaced the plastic hinged shoulder belt guides and replaced them with A/R's all metal guides (painted them semi-gloss black to match). MUCH better function and fit.

Hope this helps

Neil

[phaetn]

This is going to be a long post -- I was once in your shoes and did a lot of research about belts. My '74 originally only had fraying lap belts in the front, and nothing in the rear. This was one of the first things I addressed after having bought the car! Hopefully by reading this you can save a bit if time, but also make sure to do a search on these forums for some solutions.

First things first, check for two things. One: Does your car have a welded in bracket behind the rear seat around the interior of the rear wheel well? This is where an original system with an over the shoulder belt would be anchored, with the belt passing through a gap in the rear seat back and rising up towards the front seat. A U-shaped (likely plastic) guide ends up attaching to the front seat back near the headreast to keep the belt in place and from constantly slipping off the side of the front seat. I have some extras of those if you need them.

Secondly, if your car doesn't have that original mounting bracket, does it have a threaded hole in the rear passenger footwell, directly behind/below the front seats? Mine (a 1974, as I mentioned earlier) had these on both sides as stock and was where the lap belt was meant to be originally anchored, then it passed through a loop anchored on the interior side of the rocker panel (outside edge of the car); the other side of the belt anchored in the transmission tunnel.

I originally bought a recoiling three point belt from SeatBeltPlanenet.com and anchored the recoiling section in the footwell:


(The plastic guide I mentioned earlier wasn't installed for this pic.)

I also installed rear lap belts; luckily the mounting locations had already been pre-drilled and threaded. By your rear this may not happen because at some point (to adhere to changing laws or insurance issues?) the rears seats switched from "seats" to a "rear package shelf."


For the driver's side I bought an OMP three point harness (four section belts, though), that anchored in three spots, with a Y for the rear section that had its own buckle (handy to undo if flipping the seat forward to allow access to the rear). Corbeau and others make these, too. I fit it over the back of the seat and it didn't need retainers as one belt was on each side of the headrest and it would stay in place:


I was actually pretty happy with it, but my real concern was that my shoulders were higher than the back of the seat, and I'm 5'9". I was worried about excessive force on my collar-bone during impact, since belts are really meant to be anchored or pivot higher than shoulder level. I was also concerned about the rigidity of the old seat back itself, which might fold (you can see on some Spiders that the seat back has been bent/twisted from constant raising and lowering of the roof from inside the car). Others have told me -- who have been in front-impact accidents that have written off Spiders -- that the seat would have been fine to withstand the forces.

At any rate, I wanted the belts higher than shoulder level, but didn't want to install a roll bar because my daughters can still fit in the back for short jaunts around the neighbourhood; Haggerty also claims it won't insure a car that has a roll bar if it wasn't original equipment in the car.

So my solution was to buy Corbea Clubman racing seats, and I put in true five point 3" belts for the driver's side with a camlock release system (though it still only anchors in three spots). I love them, but not everyone does. It totally changes the look of the car, and purists, I'm sure, frown disapprovingly, especially when the car is seen from the rear. (But check out the bucket seats in an original 124 Abarth Rally). Also, not everyone can fit into the seats as they are a tight squeeze, and ingress and egress is definitely much more of a challenge. My kids can still get in the back by stepping on them and over into the back.


Cheers and good luck!
phaetn

[dreavis]

Thanks for the advice and especially the pictures (the last picture didn't load for me).

It seems like the quickest resolution is to see if I have the threaded hole behind the front seats. If so, then to get the brackets that install on the headrest supports, then purchase belts and install.

Question: with the harness set-up is there a way to have a bracket on each side of the headrest and then run the shoulder straps through each side? That way the strap would be off the shoulder.

[phaetn]

Heya -- the pic loads for me. Perhaps try reloading the page... <shrug>

First check if you have the welded bracket behind the rear seat back. That's the stock location for the over-the-shoulder anchoring point and more robust than the threaded hole in the floor. If you do have one, recognise that it's only suitable for a standard three-point belt (i.e. over one shoulder).

There are two types of guides for the seat: the plastic (maybe some were metal, too) ones that screw into the back of the seat itself and sit atop the seat. You can, conceivably, get one for each side, but it depends on where the opening is to slip the belt in (some have a central slit and therefore can be R or L, while other are a loop that is open on one end, so only suitable for R or L, but not both). Either way you would have to buy 4 if you want to equip both seats.



The other type is the one sold by A/R and fits within the headrest posts; I imagine you could get layer one on top of each other and then squeeze them down with the headrest itself.

That said, if you are planning a four belt harness (anchored in three points with one one the floor) I'm not sure the guides are a good idea. Think of the angles and forces involved where the belt pivots: back of the top of the seat, guide, shoulder. With a lot of force (especially front impact) I can easily see the headrest-style guides bending and they could even be quite dangerous if they snap. I suppose if depends how far away they are from the top of the seat back itself. This is much less of an issue when the shoulder belt is anchored to the welded bracket behind the rear seat because of the angles involved -- it's much more of a straight pull on the belt and doesn't put nearly as much pressure on the guide, but it depends on your shoulder position relative to the seat back. The guide isn't designed to take any force, it's just to avoid belts slipping off the side of the seat all of the time. The original type guides (see above) may be subject to less or more force by resting on top of the seat depending on where your shoulder position is (is it level or a lot higher than the seat back?) and the belt would either push them into the seat if you are low (a good thing!), or, if you are tall, could even pop them upwards yanking out their screws, but they might just bend or pop out of the bracket. I'd be inclined to think they are safer, but won't help with positioning above your shoulder.

The very best solution is mounting them to a roll bar. I couldn't do that which is why I went with competition seats that have a tubular steel frame and are designed to take that kind of force in the apertures.

If I was going to do it all over again with stock seats I would just use that OMP Y-style harness and no brackets. Try that first and see if you want guides or not.

Cheers,
phaetn

[phaetn]

sorry, double post

[bradartigue]

The car was never rated for 4 passengers - in any country. The seat belt mounts found on early cars are simply from the universal use of a part shared with other cars.

[DieselSpider]

The car was never rated for 4 passengers - in any country. The seat belt mounts found on early cars are simply from the universal use of a part shared with other cars.

Some may counter its not really rated for two + luggage either with a rating of 300 lbs for passengers and 130 lbs for luggage.

I wear a size 50 jacket and have a 37" waist so I am a trim 245 lbs leaving capacity for a 55 lb passenger per the specs. If I eliminate the jumper cables, emergency kit and or luggage I still have only 185 lbs capacity left for a passenger per the original specs. That does not take into account the weight difference between the Diesel Engine/Transmission and the OEM drivetrain.

I guess we could limit fill ups to half a tank for rides to the beach or grocery store to allow capacity for a passenger and some light parcels.

The previous owner cut the shoulder belts out on one side leaving the mechanism behind and tossed the retracter on the other putting in only a pair of GM lap belts in place of the originals.

[autotransgression]

i installed some corbeau retracting 3-point belts, using the stock mounting points in my 80. the retractors are too fat to fit the rear seat back back into place, but really...? not much of a back seat to begin with, and my rollbar renders it infinitely more useless. before the rollbar and belts, my ten-year-old daughter rode back there exactly once, and wanted no part of it again.

[dreavis]

Thanks again for all the great advice and photos.

Phaetn - it doesn't look like the OMP Y-harness mounted to a bracket behind the rear seat, but rather into the floor behind the seat. Is that correct?
Has anyone mounted the retractable Y harness in the floor behind the seat? Someone else noted mounting it behind the rear seat. Also, is the retractable kind preferable?

The next question will be color. The current lap belt is black, but I have a tan/saddle interior and red carpet - in a dark red car. (That's how it was when I bought it and I've seen a few pictures on the forum of other people with the same combo.)
I've seen a couple companies that offer a dark red that would match the exterior color, but the carpet is a brighter red. If anyone has an opinion on what seat belt color might go with my somewhat eccentric interior color combination, I'd love suggestions!

[autotransgression]

Thanks again for all the great advice and photos.

Phaetn - it doesn't look like the OMP Y-harness mounted to a bracket behind the rear seat, but rather into the floor behind the seat. Is that correct?
Has anyone mounted the retractable Y harness in the floor behind the seat? Someone else noted mounting it behind the rear seat. Also, is the retractable kind preferable?

The next question will be color. The current lap belt is black, but I have a tan/saddle interior and red carpet - in a dark red car. (That's how it was when I bought it and I've seen a few pictures on the forum of other people with the same combo.)
I've seen a couple companies that offer a dark red that would match the exterior color, but the carpet is a brighter red. If anyone has an opinion on what seat belt color might go with my somewhat eccentric interior color combination, I'd love suggestions!

i would definitely suggest retractable, if you are just using the car on the street. non-retracting ones are a total pain. once you are locked into a safe position, don't even think of trying to reach across to the glove compartment or to roll down the passenger window. you are pretty much attached to your seat. which is good on the track, of course.

i had planned on mounting the retractors to the floor behind the seat, but had second thoughts when i saw the diagrams in the instructions. if you think about the forces involved in an accident, you wouldn't want to be just cantilevered above your mounting points. the more level an angle that the strap comes from the rear, the more secure you will be, with more longitudinal resistance, opposed to just straight downward resistance.

[phaetn]

Thanks again for all the great advice and photos.

Phaetn - it doesn't look like the OMP Y-harness mounted to a bracket behind the rear seat, but rather into the floor behind the seat. Is that correct?

Yup, that's right. For me there was already the drilled mounting point in the floor, originally for just a lap belt. A Y-belt type would not work behind the rear seat because the angle would be too off-set and it needs to be mounted centrally.

if you think about the forces involved in an accident, you wouldn't want to be just cantilevered above your mounting points. the more level an angle that the strap comes from the rear, the more secure you will be, with more longitudinal resistance, opposed to just straight downward resistance.

Yes, that speaks to the point I was making earlier and the forces also involved on the guides. Forces are multiplied by the lever effect (assuming the fulrcum doesn't collapse) so the straighter the better.

When I was using just a three point regular shoulder belt for the passenger I had mounted the retractor transversly (see above pic) as that was how it best functioned and let the belt "flow" over the top outside of the seat, off-centre. That may or may not work for a Y-type belt, where the reel has to let it flow straight up the seat back in the centre. Crucially, the inertia reel has to lock, and you don't want the seat's fore and aft positioning interfering with that, or by having the belt twist 90 degrees!! That's ultimately why I chose the fixed option over a retractable one.

i would definitely suggest retractable, if you are just using the car on the street. non-retracting ones are a total pain. once you are locked into a safe position, don't even think of trying to reach across to the glove compartment or to roll down the passenger window. you are pretty much attached to your seat. which is good on the track, of course.

All very true, especially the bit about the passenger window. But hey, it's a convertible -- it's down most of the time anyway! For me it wasn't *that* big a deal once I became accustomed to it, but I'm not a heavy guy and don't mind the inconvenience of the very deep bucket seats, either... It's a small car and most things are within easy reach -- the radio is about my limit when fully secured. That said, it's easy enough to just loosen the belts if you need to access the glovebox, but it really *can* be a struggle for the passenger window because of how one's left shoulder is still restrained even if the belt is loose.

The biggest pain I found was actually getting in and secured, especially with the OMP type, above, with the one-click buckle. (Though note it may be the only one that is technically street-legal.) Because the vertical belts are sewed onto the horizontal ones, you actually have to slip your arms under the harness for both sides which can be an effort, especially with a jacket on. Maybe not that big a deal for the driver who is accustomed to it every trip, but it can be a real headache for a passenger that's never been in one before and they often need help. (My 3" Corbeau camlock system for the driver eliminates that hassle, since each belt attaches individually and nothing is sewn together, but the down-side is that it does take more time to find and then secure them all.)

You've had lots of pics and advice so now just dive in. You'll be frustrated with colour matching as often the tones in a pic on the web don't appear the same way in real-life. Just go for something safe that won't be too obnoxious. You might also want to consider whether or not it would attract police attention. My red ones have been seen by lots of local cops and they don't seem to care, but your district may be different. (I also keep the original, old frayed driver lap belt in the trunk to show what was in the car originally to appeal to common sense, even if the new ones don't technically meet code.)

Cheers,
phaetn

[phaetn]

The car was never rated for 4 passengers - in any country. The seat belt mounts found on early cars are simply from the universal use of a part shared with other cars.

That's an interesting point, Brad. Fiat's own manuals contradict each other with respect to this rating, according to year. Certainly later manuals (e.g. the one printed Oct. 1975 available online as a pdf for the 1976 1800) very clearly indicate load capacity as "2 adults 300lbs + 130 lbs of luggage" under the "Weights" section (p. 49). They also explicitly state "Designated Seating Capacity - 2 persons" and "Occupant Distribution - 2 in front" (ibid.) and are careful to only make mention of the "rear compartment" (p. 10), never a rear seat, despite having illustrations that obviously depict an upholstered rear seat bench.

That said, older Spider manuals suggest people were meant to be in the back occasionally, even if seat belts weren't provided. I have an original manual (3rd Ed., published June 1968) that mentions a "supplementary rear seat" (p. 7) and a "fixed bench type rear seat" (p. 60). Under the section titled "Weights" (p. 61) it specifically indicates "Accommodation: 2 persons on front seats + 2 on rear seat and 40kg (88 lbs) of luggage."

I wonder about the change to the back becoming a "non-seating" area. I don't think it's because of legislation, but may be because of insurance issues or something else. Title 49 of the United States Code, Chapter 301, Motor Vehicle Safety, (NHSTA legislation) (Standard No. 208) states the following requirement:

Passenger Cars (Effective 1-1-68)
Lap or lap and shoulder seat belt assemblies for each designated seating position. Except in convertibles, lap and shoulder seat belt assemblies are required in each front outboard seating position.

Fiat could easily have complied with this just by providing belts in the back for the "designated seating position(s)" rather than eliminating them as such. Certainly by the year of my car (1974) there are stock anchorages for belts in the back, with a 7/16" thread -- a North American standard, regardless of the origin of the car. Next time I go for a beer with SpiderDan I'll have to see if his '68 has them, too

Also, note the above NHSTA exception for convertibles, where they didn't actually require a shoulder belt. Interestingly, in the '68 manual there is an inserted fold-out illustration (pp. 8-9) that shows a "diagonal belt" which is a shoulder belt for the front seats which is tightened independently of the lap belt, despite sharing a common anchoring point in the transmission tunnel; its other anchoring point is on the "wheelbox" (i.e. the wheelwell) which seems to be down in the roof's hinge assembly reservoir when collapsed, in so far as I can tell.

I just bought an original 1974 manual from Italy to go with my car. I'm interested in seeing what is says about the rear area and occupancy numbers, especially since it's the last of the small bumpers so curb weight should still be lighter than the '76 model referenced above.

I'll update when it arrives.

Cheers,
phaetn

[Redline]

I also wouldn't say the seat belt mounts were just there as a "shared part". I doubt that this pressing and plate was similar to any of the other 124 derivatives.