considering buying into the vintage Fiat Spider world

[baltobernie]

Ok, I bought it, and the trailer load of parts that came with it. ... and what looked like some chassis struts repair pieces.

Congratulations on your new project. This forum and the vendors that support these cars can be valuable resources.

Before you go any further, browse Spider.com with the Search term "crossmember" and "shock tower rust". These are two areas of vulnerability on these cars. While any car can be restored, some are much better candidates than others. With inexpensive models such as the Spider, there are virtually no opportunities to "break even", let alone get ahead, money-wise. But a decent project car can be a fun weekender for a few thousand dollars, whereas a basket case can consume $10k in a flash. Both cars will only be worth $5k when finished, so it's important to know which you've got. This forum ... indeed, the entire vintage car hobby, is littered with incomplete projects and empty wallets.

[Pt6295]

I took at look at that car a couple of weeks ago in NY. It's definitely a nice project although it was a little too much work for me. The hardtop was a nice piece especially with the plaid headliner. Good luck fixing it up. It can be a beautiful car again.

[MrBlimp]

It's definitely a nice project although it was a little too much work for me.

I would be interested in hearing what about it was "too much work"?

[seabeelt]

Do a search for Bard Artique. He has posted all the electrical diagrams. Someone may have a direct link to his site or just google him. Should not be without those and they are free

[PhillySpider]

Ok, I bought it, and the trailer load of parts that came with it. ... and what looked like some chassis struts repair pieces.

Congratulations on your new project. This forum and the vendors that support these cars can be valuable resources.

Before you go any further, browse Spider.com with the Search term "crossmember" and "shock tower rust". These are two areas of vulnerability on these cars. While any car can be restored, some are much better candidates than others. With inexpensive models such as the Spider, there are virtually no opportunities to "break even", let alone get ahead, money-wise. But a decent project car can be a fun weekender for a few thousand dollars, whereas a basket case can consume $10k in a flash. Both cars will only be worth $5k when finished, so it's important to know which you've got. This forum ... indeed, the entire vintage car hobby, is littered with incomplete projects and empty wallets.

This spider on the bay has 4 bids, currently at $9,100.01 with a $16,000 buy it now price and 5 days to go. Nice car... http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Fiat-124-S ... 9f&vxp=mtr

[baltobernie]

This example is the opposite of a "project car".

[courtenay]

This example is the opposite of a "project car".

But one that would probably cost less to buy now than a "project car" would cost after the project was done - with a lot fewer busted knuckles and a hell of a lot less frustration.

[zachmac]

The "done" car is always cheaper in the end than the "project car" no matter what the make or model until you get into Class A collectibles which Fiats of course are not. However, some of us actually enjoy the misery of the process.

Where I would differ with baltobernie's opinion is that after sinking 10k into a project you still have a $5k car. If you start with a not too rusty project, fix the rust and paint and then make the interior and drive train right you'll be 10 to 14k (doing a lot of the work yourself) into it but you should have an 8 to 12k car when done.

Yes you'll loose money (and blood, sweat and tears) but you'll learn a lot and have the satisfaction of doing it.

Finally, unless you are buying from someone you know or you have thorough documentation of a "restoration" you really never know what you are buying until well after you've bought it. What's under that shiny new paint? Was the engine really rebuilt or just cleaned up? Etc, etc, etc. If you do it all yourself you know exactly what you've got.

[MrBlimp]

My expectation for the car is similar to my Spitfire. I bought a car that was experiencing minor rust (no rust in rockers), I bought it cheap, I did the minimal amount of work (floor patches, rust proofing the floor pans, cleaning and installing the interior, cleaning every ground in the car, compounding the body, removing the bad front bumper, and some brake work).

My added cost was in the area of a maximum of $500.00 before I had a driver car.

With the Fiat I plan to do the same - make it a driver (for use at my other residence), and not much more (at least for a year or two depending on its longevity). My current thoughts are to perform the absolute minimum amount of work (replace the timing belt/gears and the drive prop donut, get all the electrics properly functioning, and as few other things as possible).

[chrisg]

That's how I first got into Fiats...figured it would be fun til the motor grenaded. Turns out it was much more fun, actually rather reliable & easy to sort & I liked the design both aesthetically & mechanically so I ended up getting a hundred or so other Fiats after that first one - ha!

People have lots of advice to offer. Some is really good. I look at it as what do you enjoy about a "hobby" car. For me, I'm cool with buying one that's a bit of a (or a lot of) project because the choosing parts, repairing, improving, etc. minor engineering projects it affords are enjoyable...so, since I'm not particularly rushed to do it all & I often sell of spares to fund hobbies, it all works out & is fun. If I were looking at it as purely a financial deal or did not enjoy mechanical work, I would buy (if at all) different cars, usually letting one of you guys take the hit on the over-restoration & buying at pennies on the restoration/refurbish dollar. That said, a judicious approach to get a car functional & reliable always sounds smart to me for the purpose of actually getting to KNOW these cars before embarking on a major restoration. It still blows my mind that someone would buy a car like a 124 & take it apart & rebuild it to a very detailed level of restoration without having put in some serious time getting to know the cars. Or maybe it doesn't matter how they drive & they're just cruising & trailering them to shows or something? Anyway, that's all to say it sounds like you have a good plan. Take what you need of our community's advice & leave the rest!

[zachmac]

That's how I first got into Fiats...figured it would be fun til the motor grenaded. Turns out it was much more fun, actually rather reliable & easy to sort & I liked the design both aesthetically & mechanically so I ended up getting a hundred or so other Fiats after that first one - ha!

People have lots of advice to offer. Some is really good. I look at it as what do you enjoy about a "hobby" car. For me, I'm cool with buying one that's a bit of a (or a lot of) project because the choosing parts, repairing, improving, etc. minor engineering projects it affords are enjoyable...so, since I'm not particularly rushed to do it all & I often sell of spares to fund hobbies, it all works out & is fun. If I were looking at it as purely a financial deal or did not enjoy mechanical work, I would buy (if at all) different cars, usually letting one of you guys take the hit on the over-restoration & buying at pennies on the restoration/refurbish dollar. That said, a judicious approach to get a car functional & reliable always sounds smart to me for the purpose of actually getting to KNOW these cars before embarking on a major restoration. It still blows my mind that someone would buy a car like a 124 & take it apart & rebuild it to a very detailed level of restoration without having put in some serious time getting to know the cars. Or maybe it doesn't matter how they drive & they're just cruising & trailering them to shows or something? Anyway, that's all to say it sounds like you have a good plan. Take what you need of our community's advice & leave the rest!

What he said!

[baltobernie]

Where I would differ with baltobernie's opinion is that after sinking 10k into a project you still have a $5k car. If you start with a not too rusty project ...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A little bit of due diligence before dragging that lump home can be the difference between a fun driver and an incomplete, budget-busting failure. Armed with the knowledge from only those two articles I linked, plus a magnet, an ice pick and a compression tester, a Spider newbie can have a reasonable chance of completing a reasonable project.

Ten grand into a basket-case might not even produce a running car.

[MrBlimp]

Here's the way I look at it -

I love being the guy with the car that I can take out in every type of weather (my cousin doesn't take his $20k+ Corvette out unless the sun is shining).

I love being the guy at the car show whose car looks like it is driven and has been constantly driven (my other cousin doesn't drive his Shelby he pushes it in and out of the garage and onto and off the trailer).

I love being able to drive my cars as much as often as I like and any way I like because I have done all the work on it and know the car as well as possible (the guy I bought my Spitfire spent 2k on mechanic costs and was looking at 8k more before he sold it to me for what he paid for it, but not what he paid for the pickup truck full of parts he gave me with the car).

I love that I don't have more invested in my cars than their actual value and that I can walk away for it any time I like because I quickly monetize the investment against my enjoyment (I use a formula similar to leasing my wife's car $total investment/# of goal monetize months - so a car I paid $2k for I monetize at $300 a month making it totally financially free and clear after 6 and a half months).

I love that when I am at a car show I get as much interest as the fully restored cars do.

[zachmac]

Here's the way I look at it -

I love being the guy at the car show whose car looks like it is driven and has been constantly driven.
I love being able to drive my cars as much as often as I like and any way I like because I have done all the work on it and know the car as well as possible.

Mr. Blimp,

Welcome aboard, you sound like a guy I can relate to as I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. I spent six years (and about $80k) doing a nut and bolt restoration of an E-type to concours condition and when I was all done I thought now what do I do? I can't drive it or it rapidly becomes something less than concours. Learned my lesson and I've never had anything but reliable drivers since. I have had far more fun with a rough British or Italian sports car than anyone I've ever seen showing a trailer queen.

Make it reliable and drive it like you stole it! BTW, my experience says both British and Fiats came with less than desirable wiring. But with good basic knowledge and wiring diagrams it isn't hard to put all that right and eliminate the Prince of Darkness. I think I've probably eliminated about 30 feet or more of wire form my 78 to date.

[chrisg]

Mr B I share your point of view mostly. The fact that a population really digs making these cars better than perfect & factory "correct" (though a few factory details may not have been so correct) is good in terms of preservation. And who am I to judge? All the perspectives make the world go around...but the cars that are interesting to me in the Fiat world are the ones that are driven & maintained with respect and/or the ones with thoughtful mechanical improvements or customization done by the owner, likely with some type of competition in mind. But I'm not really a car show kinda guy anyway...I don't want to show off my car & accolades for it's aesthetics seem shallow to me. If I raced cars, I'd want it to do well though ! I also seem to collect semi-vintage road racing bicycles and I race bicycles (modern ones)...I ride the vintage ones (often to the surprise of my friends) and they are nice but they all get ridden, meaning sometimes I get caught out in the rain & sometimes they get a nick on them. I put my energy in that hobby into being on the podium after the race and to hell with whether the bike is shiny.

With most cars, I buy with an eye towards a scrap out exit strategy....and other than with paint and labor, most stuff can be reversed back out for cash if so desired.