Trying to put wiring back together on Sofia's restoration

[Sambo42]

Hi folks

For those who haven't followed the thread over in the restoration column....a very quick summary; Sofia is a 1971 German imported car that I have converted to RHD here in Australia. I am finally putting the wiring back together and I'm having some partial success - I have managed to get ignition light on, fuel pump running, heater fan working and the starter motor to turn over (by mistake...). I am using the wiring diagram from the mirafiori website (https://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/6 ... MPLETE.pdf) but there are some things that don't match up between the wiring diagram and the car that have me confused. I'll keep the initial list of questions short....

1) I have a green/black wire that runs direct from the steering column switches to the engine bay (photos below) - no idea what it's supposed to plug in to and it shouldn't be on my steering column according Brad's diagram. Is this a euro car thing? Have I got a later model steering column?? (photos below)
2) on the 2-position outer switch for the headlights (could someone explain to me how this switch works BTW?) when I removed the old switch there appear to be 4 wires connected rather than 3 - including a pink wire. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Also doesn't show up on Brad's diagram...

This green/black wire on the steering column switches



Doesn't appear on Brad's wiring diagram:


And bypasses the fuse panel and goes straight to the engine bay:

[SteinOnkel]

Sofia is a 1971 German imported car that I have converted to RHD here in Australia.

Woah

On my 1978 the light switch works like this:

all the way up - nothing
middle position - running lights
all the way down - running lights + low beams

Also, everything is off when the key is taken out of the ignition regardless of light switch position, however that may be due to the Lada style ignition switch. That's a topic that we could collectively fill tomes with though.

As for your mysterious wire...I doubt that it's Euro specific. The reason I say that is that car in the 70's had more wires in America than Europe. Especially here in California where they needed to meet emissions requirements. Also, I'm not aware that anything needs to be wired differently for cars in Germany regulation wise...

except...

On VWs, if you have everything off and the key out you can still turn on the lights, kind of. If you move the turn signal stalk to the left or right indicator, the parking lights on that side of the car will be on. This is so people don't hit you if you're parked on the sidewalk.

Whether or not this was mandated or VW just did it for funsies, I cannot say.

The other thing that comes to mind is the rear fog light. That wasn't mandatory until 1990 in Germany, if memory serves.

Or, perhaps it's to switch from high to low beams?

Cheers
Steiny

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Could the green/black wire be for the windshield washer fluid pump? My '71 has a push button switch right below the dash for this function, although its wire color is light blue/black stripe. The washer fluid bag is located on the passenger side up on the firewall. On some later models, the windshield washer pump switch was on the steering column stalk, which perhaps is what you have?

-Bryan

[spider2081]

I don't think Fiat wire diagrams are 100% accurate all the time. One area often misleading is the fuse panel. Fo most Spiders fuses 3 & 4 feed side are jumped together. As are 5 & 6. 3 & 4 are usually the hi beam headlights and 5 & 6 are the lo beam.
Unfused power is fed to the dash 3 position toggle switch from the ignition switch when the 3 position switch is in the headlight that power is fed to the steering column hi/lo flash switches. If the Hi beams are selected the power then feeds fuses 3 & 4 If lo beam is selected fuses 5 & 6 are fed. Each headlight bulb hi and lo filament have their own fuse.

I agree I think the green black wire is for the windshield washer pump. On some of the early Spider column assemblies pulling the windshield wiper lever back turned on the washer pump. Other had a separate push switch below the dash. The phot looks to me like the green black wire is going to a momentary type switch contact.

[Sambo42]

Could the green/black wire be for the windshield washer fluid pump? My '71 has a push button switch right below the dash for this function, although its wire color is light blue/black stripe. The washer fluid bag is located on the passenger side up on the firewall. On some later models, the windshield washer pump switch was on the steering column stalk, which perhaps is what you have?

-Bryan

Bryan I think you're right - I found a '78 wiring diagram and it looks exactly like that. Which means that either I have a different column switch of my car is '78 instead. If it's option A) I now have to work out how the later steering column switch wiring was integrated.... hmm.

Sam

[spider2081]

my car is '78

Sometime people with later model cars want the early steering wheel. I think the steering column switch assembly operation is dependent of the steering wheel. So if your car has a thin wood steering wheel that might be the case. I think a 78 would have had the black rubber steering wheel. Im not positive of the year the change too place.

[Sambo42]

I certainly have an early model steering wheel (thin wood rim)...

On a separate note - can anyone post a picture of their starter motor wiring? I tried turning it over this afternoon and I'm not sure I have it connected up right....

[spider2081]

I don't have a photo but:
There are 3 terminals on the starter solenoid, the inboard stud has a braided wire that connected the motor to the solenoid. It is the only connection on that stud. The outer stud has the batter + cable, the wire connecting the alternator output post to the battery, and a brown wire that connects the battery to the ignition switch terminal 30. There is a spade terminal that has a red wire connecting the ignition switch pin 50 to the starter solenoid. This connection activates the solenoid when the ignition switch is in the "start" position.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I tried turning it over this afternoon and I'm not sure I have it connected up right....

What were the symptoms? No sound or movement at all, a click from the starter but it doesn't turn over, or ??

Spider2081's description above is correct. Possible causes if you see or hear nothing from the starter motor are: 1) dead battery or bad cable connections, 2) bad ignition switch (for the starter function), 3) bad starter solenoid.

-Bryan

[Sambo42]

A brief update - turns out my starter solenoid was dead - I grounded the starter motor itself and connected the positive terminal of the battery to the output of the solenoid - starter spins merrily. No sign of any action at all in the solenoid when I ground the solenoid, apply a positive to the positive terminal, then connect the positive to the 'activating' terminal. A new solenoid on its way from Vick (now that the aussie dollar has hit the lowest level we've seen since the '90s. Yay!)

Washer motor - I have no idea where it has got to! Instead of a washer bag which would be original for '71 I have a resevoir bottle, but not sure where the motor is. I haven't double checked under the wiper motor panel yet though. Otherwise I might work on installing an aftermarket washer motor - anyone else done that?

And very last question - my ignition switch seems to be playing up. When I turn the switch to the next-but-last position (just prior to engaging the starter motor) I have no juice anywhere. but about 1/8 of a turn before that everything is live - handbrake light blinks, heater blower works, front park lights come on (if the lighting switch is in the correct position). Any thoughts? New ignition switch?

[Johannes]

And very last question - my ignition switch seems to be playing up. When I turn the switch to the next-but-last position (just prior to engaging the starter motor) I have no juice anywhere. but about 1/8 of a turn before that everything is live - handbrake light blinks, heater blower works, front park lights come on (if the lighting switch is in the correct position). Any thoughts? New ignition switch?

Hello Sambo,

I had completely the same problem, engine started and when I turned the key bach to RUN-position it died immediately. When the engine fired up I had to turn the key somewhere beetween 0 and RUN position very fast, then it stayed running.

I removed the ignition switch to have a close look on it, it was already a LADA switch. When I opened the back side where the contacts are, I noticed that a plastic ring was broken and contacts did not work as they should. I ordered a new LADA switch, now everything works fine

When you have cyrillic letters on the front side of the ignition switch, it is a LADA type.
My switch was so worn out that I could pull the key out at every position, this made it difficult to remove it from the steering column. Let me know if you have troubles, I think I now know how to remove it

[Sambo42]

Hi Johannes

Guess what??



Looks like I'll need a new one... was it very hard to replace? And out of interest - do you have access to european spider wiring diagrams? My car is from Germany originally.

Next problem to solve - no indicators...Do I presume the flasher is the main culprit?

Thanks folks

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Washer motor - I have no idea where it has got to! Instead of a washer bag which would be original for '71 I have a resevoir bottle, but not sure where the motor is. I haven't double checked under the wiper motor panel yet though. Otherwise I might work on installing an aftermarket washer motor - anyone else done that?

It sounds like you're well on the way to fixing your starter and ignition switch issues, but to answer your questions above: The original washer bags in early Fiats ('71 for example) had the pump motor as part of the bag itself, at the bottom. This design was very prone to leaking or the pump motor seizing up over the years, and it didn't help that the washer bag was located right across from the (hot) exhaust manifold. So, it's very common to see an aftermarket washer pump installed somewhere else with a simple reservoir for the fluid. I don't recall ever seeing the pump installed under the cowl panel, although an aftermarket pump could be anywhere along the water line from the reservoir to the sprayer tips.

Also, and i don't recall the year, but Fiat switched from a bag with the pump and water tube connection at the bottom, to a simple bag with the tube in the top of the bag and the pump mounted elsewhere. The latter is more reliable.

Very early spiders (like my '69) had a foot operated pump located in the footwell off to the side of the clutch pedal. Now that I mention that, I wonder if mine even works anymore...?

-Bryan

[Johannes]

Hello Sambo,

it is very easy to replace, when you know how to do it. I had troubles with mine because the key and the key guidance was so worn that I could remove the key at any position. Normally it takes about 10 minutes.

To remove the ignition switch:
1. disconnect battery
2. make notes how your cables are connected to the switch, disconnect the cables
3. loose the screws which held the switch in place (normally one or two)
4. turn ignition switch in 0-Position (second position when you start clockwise)


5. use a small flat screwdriver and push in the hole on the right side of the switch to unlock the clamp


6. while you push the clamp you can remove the switch from the column

I found a lot of useful information on the https://mirafiori.com site. There are three good instructions to repair the original Fiat-Sipea switch, troubleshooting on the switch and an instruction from Brad Artigue to change the wiring for the LADA switch.
https://mirafiori.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=98470
https://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/s ... witch.html
https://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/switch/index.html
I really recommend to sign in there, they provide a huge amount of useful information.

I´m afraid I haven´t special access to european wiring diagrams, all I have is from https://mirafiori.com. My car is a 1978 CS1 from the US and the wiring colours are quite correct - except what the DPO did

I also had troubles with indicators and the left low beam. I noticed that the failures came from bad connections of the fuses, I cleaned them with steel wool and all the problems were gone. Hopefully in your case it is as easy as in mine

Johannes (in locked-down Austria due to Corona)

[spider2081]

Great write up and photos Johannes Thank you.

We are in "lock Down" here in USA also. Scary stuff.

Sometimes pressing in on the ignition switch release with the key lined up with the arrow or the 0 does not work. If that happens, pressing in continuously while rotating the the key from "off" toward "start" there is a point where the release moves in and frees the ignition switch.
The photo Sambo42 posted of the ignition switch does not appear to be the usual Sipea or a Lada switch. Maybe the switch is not electrically compatible with the original Fiat wiring.