Help with timing belt please

[Mheinle]

Hello all,
Today I went in to replace my timing belt. When I started the PO had put some white out marks on the pulleys which I assumed were TDC, I went through the whole process and got everything back together, but I am concerned and am hoping for some help. I have a pick of the pulley's which look to be in good shape TDC (The while out marks were not TDC but they worked) the auxiliary pulley is lined with the tensioner well enough. But the crankshaft does not appear to be aligned with anything. In my work I did not move any of the pulleys other then the auxiliary. Should I remove the belt and and turn the crank mark to align with the little arm? There is a mark on the crank that lines up, but I am not sure if that is something the PO did or if it is something else, the white mark at 12 o'clock appears to be the factory mark I should be shooting for.
Cams

Axillary lined up with tensioner

Crankshaft (Does it need adjusting and what is the best way to resolve?)



If the pics are not displaying try this.
https://imgur.com/a/iDhaRgn

I appreciate any help, I am so nervous about this job. Oh and I was able to rotate the engine two full rotation with no issue, I am hoping if the fix is to remove the belt I don't have to buy a new one.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

The camshaft pulleys appear to be lined up with the triangular pointer and their respective holes, but I doesn't look like the crankshaft is at TDC. Hard to tell from the picture, but the notch on the crankshaft pulley looks about 2 inches away from the larger of the three tips on the timing pointer. I would ignore any marks the PO made unless you know these to be correct. POs often screw up....

The easiest way to verify TDC on the crankshaft (although not super precise) is to remove the #1 spark plug and stick a long screwdriver down the hole. As you rotate the crankshaft in either direction, the top of the screwdriver (which is riding on the piston crown) should start falling. If you are at TDC. If the screwdriver continues to rise when you turn the engine, you're not at TDC.

Also, with the crankshaft truly at TDC and the cam pulleys lined up, the little holes in the auxiliary pulley should be angled towards the bolt that locks down the tensioner adjusting spring. About 1 o'clock as viewed from the front. This doesn't need to be exact, but you don't want it 180 degrees off. Yours looks off a bit.

-Bryan

[Mheinle]

Thank you! I will try the screw driver test. It sounds like removing the belt and adjusting a few things is in order. If I remove the belt do I need to buy a new one? I put it on yesterday and the manual say once a belt is under tension it should not be reused, But I have watched videos where guys are taking them of and on several times.

[Mheinle]

I did some research and it appears you can just release tension adjust and replace, if anyone has other thoughts I am all ears, better safe than sorry. I went ahead and re-aligned the crank and auxillary pulley's and made and tiny adjustment to a cam. Got the belt back on and under tension and everything looks great. Ran through 2 rotations of the engine and no banging or crunching. I think I am in business! I do have two other questions though.
1. How tight do I torque the tension spring retainer bolt? This is the bold actually holding the spring on. It looks like the washer sits a little wonky right now, but I don't want to over tighten, I broke that bolt yesterday.
2. when replacing the T on the radiator does the bolt with the funky looking T point up or down? When I removed it, the T bolt was pointing up, but other images I have seen show a regular hex nut on top, not the T that looks like it has been on the car since the statue of liberty was built.
3. My car does not have the little tin cover requireing the CAM pulley to be removed, while I really appreciated this, is this a bad idea to run it?

[Mheinle]

So I took another look at the T outlet. The ancient looking T is the only Nut there so question is moot, it goes on top. What I am struggling with is the ability to remove the bolt....

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Two answers and a question:

1. You don't have to buy a new timing belt just because you tensioned it before. The only times that it should be replaced are simple age (miles or years), or if there is damage to it (worn teeth, frayed, edges cut up, etc).

2. There are three bolts/nuts associated with the tensioner bracket and spring: First, there is the large 17mm nut in the center of the tensioner bearing. That must be loosened to move the tensioner (don't forget to retighten). Second, there is a 13mm bolt that goes through the middle of the tensioner spring, but my recollection is that you don't loosen this to tighten the tensioner. Third, there is another 13mm bolt between the ones that I just talked about, and you can see a hint of it in your picture. This one must be loosened to adjust the tensioner.

3. I'm not sure that you are referring to with the T outlet? You have to remove the forward part to get the timing cover off so that you can remove the timing belt, but it looks like you've already done that. Can you explain a bit more what you're trying to do?

-Bryan

[Mheinle]

Hi There,
The part is shown in this post as number 18 it just says Tee. It bolts directly to the block between the cams. It looks like you are supposed to fill the coolant through this Tee after the rad is full, but I cannot get mine open.
https://fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic.php?t=23072

I realize now that I should not have removed the tensioner spring retaining bolt(the bolt that goes through the spring into the block), but it has been done so I am trying to figure out how tight to make it.

Again, I really appreciate the help here. You have saved my bacon several times and I am just getting started!

[18Fiatsandcounting]

I don't recall a torque spec for the bolt that goes through the tensioner spring, but probably around 20 ft. lbs. Tight, but not ridiculously so. Most 13mm bolts that go into the aluminum (like the cylinder head) should only go to 18 ft lbs or so, but this bolt goes into cast iron so you can go a little higher.

As for the Tee, I wouldn't work about filling the cooling system through that. There are many methods for filling the cooling system so as to remove air bubbles. Starting from easiest to hardest:

1. The system should be self correcting, if your radiator cap is working right and the coolant overflow tank is about 2/3 full. Warm up the engine, and then as it cools back down, the radiator cap should allow coolant from the overflow tank to fill the system. Might take a few cycles. But, for unknown reasons, many cannot get this to work the way it should.

2. Raise the front of the car as high as you can, and then fill the radiator. Or simply park on a slope if you have one.

3. Add a coolant Tee (with a cap) to the hose that goes from the rear of the cylinder head to the heater core, and fill through that Tee.

4. Drill holes in various parts of the thermostat and such so that air bubbles don't get trapped. I don't recommend this.

When filling the radiator, go slowly, massage the hoses as you go, let it sit for 15 minutes, add some more coolant, repeat.

-Bryan

[Mheinle]

Hi Bryan,
Thank you again for all of the guidance, I did get everything back together, and filled the radiator and massaged it for a bit, I also added the coolant to the over flow. I decided to fire the engine up to see if that would work some bubbles up. Unfortunately, it runs horribly now, I can hardly get it to idle, it feels like it is bogging out and blowing a lot of smoke. I am wondering if it could be the ignition is out of timing based on the pictures above. When the engine was TDC earlier the crank marks were off and I am wondering if now that I corrected the timing on the crank the ignition is off? I honestly have no idea what to do from here....I will start researching timing adjustments.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Changing a timing belt can change the ignition timing, so I'd suggest getting a timing light and checking that. It's most likely an ignition timing issue, but I'd still re-verify that your crankshaft and cam pulley timing marks are lining up as they should. And use the screwdriver method to verify that you are indeed at TDC when the mark on your crank pulley tells you so.

By the way, if you rotate the engine by hand (using a socket on the crank nut for example), it's a good idea to only turn the engine in its normal rotating direction, which is clockwise viewed from the front. You can manually go backwards a slight amount, but for whatever reason, the timing belt seems more prone to slipping when turning counterclockwise.

-Bryan

[Mheinle]

I thoughts the same, so last night I pulled the plugs and rotated the crank clockwise by hand. Literally no tools. I moved the mark on the crank to the large pointer and then checked the markings on the cams through the holes in the housing they all lined up and the screw driver in cylinder 1 was at the top of travel.

I will need to get a timing light and check the distributor position to get this resolved. I think I will try to start with the distributor first because the car is running so bad I am not sure a timing light will work. It idles at maybe 100 rpm and dies. Reving gets the rpm up but just sputters. When I pulled the plugs they were fouled.

[Mheinle]

A little more info I checked the distributor by removing the cap and it looks like the pointer is pointing toward #4 but is a few degrees off. Maybe 10-15. To fix that do I loosen the nut and turn the distributor as a whole unit? Not sure on this part.

I was also reading this post. https://fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25955 and noticed that one poster recommended to remove the crank pulley and align it to the TDC marks and reinstall? I did not remove my crank, but am hoping it is keyed or something so that it can't be off TDC markings?? The misalignment on the distributor is almost identical to the variance of the timing marks on the crank as in the image above. I am hoping if I move the rotor back to be right on #4 it will run well enough to use a timing light.

[18Fiatsandcounting]

Yes, you are right on all counts:

1. To change the ignition timing, you loosen the fork clamp at the base of the distributor and rotate the whole unit. Counterclockwise will advance the timing, while clockwise rotation will retard it. A half inch of rotation on the outside of the cap is about 20 degrees.

2. With the crankshaft at TDC on #1, and the cam pulleys lined up with their pointer, the distributor rotor should be set so that it points to the internal contact for the #4 spark plug wire. Get it as close as you can, then the final timing is done with a timing light.

3. The crankshaft pulley is keyed to the crankshaft, so you can't loosen the pulley and change it. Unless somebody removed the key in the past, which is a really, really, really bad idea....

Send me a PM if you want to chat by phone on this, and I'll send you my phone number. Might be quicker.

-Bryan

[Mheinle]

Thanks Bryan! I will take a stab at this tonight and see what the result is. I figure If I can at least get it idling a little happier then I will find a timing light to dial it in. This is pretty new to me. If the situation does not improve or God forbid gets worse I will PM you, I keep reminding myself, I wanted a project car I wanted a project car.....

[Nut124]

Bryan, good job!