Rack and Pinion Conversion

[fiat124v8]

The X1/9 Rack had 3.1 turns lock-to-lock; I don't recall the travel. Yes, the X rack is a behind the "axle" rack. This is a challenge on several V6 / V8 engine swaps due to the frequency of rear oil pumps, oil filter locations, starters, and exhaust routing. Chevy used rear oil pumps, however the Chevy II used a different version with a front oil pick-up tube. It's possible that this pump with a custom tube and custom pan (or modified pan) could buy you enough space. Other cars have inserted a tube through the oil pan, typically for axle clearance. I think that Lamborghini might have done some of this first???, but the Honda / Acura V6's have some space saving engineering built into them too. I'll have to read back through this post to see what you are using for spindles for the front steer system.

[v6spider]

Stock spider spindles with custom designed steering arms. And 85 + pinninfarina tie rod ends threaded to fit the pinto rack... I have zero bump steer..

Rob

[1983Pinin]

Hi ,

I have a 1983 Spider and I have a steering question.

1-- Were they using rack and pinion in the 1983 models? I am thinking it was a worm at that point and rack and pinion came later, like around 1985?
2-- If the 1983 did not have rack and pinion, can a later spider rack and pinion set up be swapped into the 1983?
3-- Is there value in moving from worm to rack?
4-- does anyone have experience with the mrfiat new rack and pinion setup:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fiat-124-Spider ... d1&vxp=mtr

I am wondering if this new mrfiat part is a direct fit into a 1983. I called the company and they will get me an answer, but not until the Europeans (that make the unit) come back from the August holiday month. I'm just looking for some advance intell, in case I should start saving fror this potential upgrade!

Thanks!

--Peter

[toyfiats]

Hi ,

I have a 1983 Spider and I have a steering question.

1-- Were they using rack and pinion in the 1983 models? I am thinking it was a worm at that point and rack and pinion came later, like around 1985?
2-- If the 1983 did not have rack and pinion, can a later spider rack and pinion set up be swapped into the 1983?
3-- Is there value in moving from worm to rack?
4-- does anyone have experience with the mrfiat new rack and pinion setup:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fiat-124-Spider ... d1&vxp=mtr

I am wondering if this new mrfiat part is a direct fit into a 1983. I called the company and they will get me an answer, but not until the Europeans (that make the unit) come back from the August holiday month. I'm just looking for some advance intell, in case I should start saving fror this potential upgrade!

Thanks!

--Peter

The R&P didn't come until the end in what is commonly referred to as the '85 1/2 Spiders (but I've seen cars with a build date of 9/84 with the later bits). Yes, earlier cars can be retrofit, and Csaba Vandor has done just that. However, it is MUCH more involved than just the rack that Mrfiat has listed. Parts that are different include but are not limited to the crossmember, exhaust downpipe, brake pedal, steering column, and steering arms.

The cost to gather all the parts (unless you were able to get the complete set-up from a parted out Spider) would very likely outweigh the increased value from having a converted car, that is assuming the Germans have reproduced _all_ of the necessary parts for the conversion (because original Fiat parts are pretty much nonexistent at this point). That said, the improvement is really quite noticeable.

[1983Pinin]

Thanks toyfiats

That explains all the posts related to the crossmember that I've seen.
Maybe I should just be happy with what I've got , and with some replacement of original 1983 parts I can get a tiny bit better handling.
I know the driver side ball joints need to be replaced--I can pull the top of the wheel back and hear that little click. I thought it was odd that only the driver side was loose, until I saw pictures of the original owner, who was huge! The owner included new upper lower control arms for both sides, so they need to go in. Is that a relatively easy DIY ?( with a professional alignment afterwards...). I've done an engine rebuild but never worked on suspension, other than ball joints on the old spiders that were riveted.
I do see about 10 degrees of steering wheel play (plus minus 5 degrees), which I don't like but believe is not dangerous.
The car passed NYS inspection so I don't think suspension is super bad, but I'd like to tighten up the steering a bit-- that's why I was thinking of the rack and pinion mod if it didn't require a lot of extra parts.

What should I be looking at to tighten the steering play?

--Peter

[djape1977]

search the forum for topics on steering box. plenty talk on that.
i've just installed a NOS steering box in my car and changed worn tie-rod ends, steering is tight, even compared to modern cars

[JinxaHappy]

I'm sry for reviving an old thread, but has anyone found a suitable modern r&p setup for these cars?? I was hoping someone found one out of a junkyard and measured it to find that it fits. Lol

[jpaulus53]

Another forum , i know. but i always thought this post had a lot of good information

http://www.turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11

[Sparky]

Stock spider spindles with custom designed steering arms. And 85 + pinninfarina tie rod ends threaded to fit the pinto rack... I have zero bump steer..

Rob

Hi Rob,
I know this is an old thread, but is there any chance you could elaborate on the custom steering arms? and some pictures of how/where you mounted the rack? I looked through your photos and couldn't make out what you did with the steering (but the engine swap stuff was cool).
Thanks

[v6spider]

Stock spider spindles with custom designed steering arms. And 85 + pinninfarina tie rod ends threaded to fit the pinto rack... I have zero bump steer..

Rob

Hi Rob,
I know this is an old thread, but is there any chance you could elaborate on the custom steering arms? and some pictures of how/where you mounted the rack? I looked through your photos and couldn't make out what you did with the steering (but the engine swap stuff was cool).
Thanks

Check your messages.. I p.m.d ya!

Rob

[Sparky]

I did a bit of digging around a local junkyard. It seems pretty much all the fwd cars use rear steer racks, but most of the modern cars are power steering.
Some of the cheaper cars from the late 80's-90's like the Honda civic's and crx's look pretty simple to make mounts for, same with the golfs/rabbits/jettas, and geo metro/suzuki swift, . I'm wondering if anyone has measurements for the stock 124 or 'ideal' dimensions.
I'm also wondering how important it is for the rack to be in-line with the steering as most of the fwd's have the rack mounted to the firewall and the arms angled forward to the hubs.

[So Cal Mark]

the length of the rack is very important so that you don't create loads of bump steer

[Sparky]

I think everyone knows that the length of the rack is important, I was kind of hoping that some experienced, technical people might have a bit more to add. ie. it'd be nice to get some of these numbers without having to pull my shocks and springs.

If the best balance point between suspension travel, a low CoG, and an attractive stance is lowered with the lower control arm parallel the ground, it should be fairly easy to find the instant center (or at least a decent static approximation).
(image from http://www.biokustoms.com/)

The following snippet/image is from Woodward Steering's guide to selecting a custom steering rack (http://www.woodwardsteering.com/PDF/tec ... 0guide.pdf)


In practice, the Instant Center (IC) moves with the suspension and the rack ends move as you turn the wheel, so there tends to be either a lot of simulation or trial&error required to find the best balance of rack length and positition... So if anyone knows what the rack length is from the 1985.5 Pininfarina, that might be a great starting point.

We could just buy the rack-mount-equipped front cross-member and rack from Spider-Point for ~$1000(+shipping from europe)...


or maybe buy a sub-$100 rack and fab up some brackets...
There's also companies like Unisteer that will build you a fully custom rack with the ratios, lengths, and tie-rod ends of your choice for ~$500

[Cstorry]

I have all the parts. You want the length of the rack including the tie rod ends ?

You can see from my photo what is changed compared to the worm and roller system - basically everything

Well you can't see cause I can't figure out how to post pics ...

Chuck

[Cstorry]

... and here is the photo