Fiat Chrys not a done deal yet

[mdrburchette]

Spiddy hit the nail on the head alright! I guess I know how all the people around us can afford new houses and cars. They're all teetering on the edge.
Rey, I agree with everything you said. When you're ready to move, $350k will buy you one hellava house over here.

[wengr]

Denise, i could never survive on $15.00 an hour. i have a very modest house the cost over 350,000 . and i never said non union people were uneducated or ignorant.

Hello Spiderrey, I think we agree on a few things. It's impossible to dispute that there is plenty of blame to go around. corporate shortsightedness, poor quality, stale design, executive greed and waste, marketing and business strategies that insult the customer's intelligence, etc. etc. But it's also the $27( which is probably actually often as much as $70), and the extensive benefits and the crippling legacy costs - it has benn shown earlier in this thread that GM pays many more people to stay home than actual employees. Also, I do not wish to kill the unions. I fully support workers rights to try collective bargaining. Where I believe we will differ is that I also believe there should be no government infringement on a business which decides not to acknowledge a union. I have never been to California, must be a beautiful and desireable locale if a modest house costs $350K. If that's indicative of your cost of living than maybe $27 for a line worker is not totally crazy. but most gm assembly plants are in Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, where the coa is much less and the guy on the line at another company manufacturing, well you name it - gets by on half that. anyway, I for one have appreciated the interesting and informative dialog.

[So Cal Mark]

cost of living isn't that different across the country, except for housing prices. Each part of the country incurs some expense that others don't that even out costs. Houses are expensive in So Cal, but we don't spend a fortune heating them over the winter. Most of the agriculture in the US is in Calif, so fresh food costs are lower here than states where it's trucked in.
Govt hasn't forced companies to unionize, but they have ensured the rights of workers that decide to unionize. Without any unions, workers will have to rely on the benevolent corporate ceo's
Think about this, if all of the pensions are thrown out, retirees will have to rely on government support to survive. And that means tax money.
I feel a bigger problem than workers pay, is the disproportionate ratio between the avg workers' pay and that of corporate executives. Most ceo's now make over 4000 times what an avg worker in their company makes, and other top level execs are compensated compartively. I can't think of one that is worth that level of pay

[SpiderHead]

Fiat said they are willing to do what the Obamanation asks it to do to basically get 35% of Chrysler for no money.

For us this is pretty good news!

as for the big 3. As much as I hate Obama for spending so much money so flippantly... I'm kind of proud of him for getting tough. Though, I'm sure if you went to him and told him he needs to spend 32 billion dollars to save the wiggle worm of Long Beach... and you were a big contributor to the socialist movement... and called it stimulus.. creating "green jobs"... you would get it... and no strings would be attached, this would become a permanent part of our federal "green jobs program", and would increase by 1.5% over the rate of inflation each year, until tax rates are where the socialists want them.

and before anyone goes flamethrower on me... The modern democratic party has been driven by the socialists for years, and now seems to be quickly transitioning into the national socialist party. OK, now you can go flame thrower on me...

If I was king, I would say sink or swim to the big 3. Bankruptcy is not a bad thing, it leads to renegotiation, restructuring and settlement of debts. The legal concept of bankruptcy was designed as a safety net for not only individuals but corporations and governments. This firing of the GM head honcho by the President of the United States is a friggin' scary thing. Where does this lead?

People of the government, by the government, and for the government... That's where it leads

Our constitution is pretty clear about what each branch of our federal government is supposed to be doing... and even more clear about what they cannot do.

In most cases, these constitutional limitations have been ignored... by all 3 branches... when populated by either political party.

Congress is spending your grandchildren's money. Barack Obama is now the CEO of GM. Federal Judges are supposed to step in when crap law is written, and when crap executive orders are outside the scope of the constitutional job description.

where are our checks and balances?

Our federal judges are asked to swear to defend the integrity of the United States Constitution... they are not asked to swear to defend crappy decisions that had been made in years past. Or to ignore unconstitutional crap that is collapsing the very constitution they swear to defend.

Re-evolution son.

Time to hit the reset button. Back to constitutional law... strict interpretation of the constitution... or leave our shores.

This was a free country, built around the sovereign citizen. All levels of government are supposed to be here to serve us, not the other way around.

I am honestly scared for the first time in my life... and it is of my own government.

-Ryan

ok, socialists... defend your party. use logic now.. not emotional arguments.

[lanciahf]

I agree with Ryan and I know many others that feel the same way. Our government has become for the lobbiest payed by the people.

time for a revolt?
http://taxdayteaparty.com/
http://www.teaparty2.org/

Notice how the news never mentions these protests. Thank god for you tube.

[mdrburchette]

Supposed to be a big one in Atlanta on Tax day. I may check it out.
I wonder how Fiat feels about being part of an ultimatum with the US government.

[Kevin1]

Interesting discussion on NPR this morning about Fiat and Chrysler. Here's the gist of it:

At this point in the proceedings, as long as Fiat desires a stake in Chrysler and the US market it is a win-win situation for them no matter what hapens to Chrysler. If they join forces, Fiat takes a stake in Chrysler for no money and Chrysler gets taxpayer support again. If Chrysler is forced to go through bankruptcy it is unlikely they will come out of it intact. Fiat then can buy the assets they want for pennies on the dollar. It is doubtful any other automakers will be bidding against Fiat for these assets as none of them seem to be expanding their operations at the moment.

Which scenario do you think is better for us Fiatisti? Fiat partnered up with Chrysler, or Fiat coming back into the US as an independent brand?

[spidernut]

It appears we have to be led by marketing spin doctors and we no longer think for ourselves. But it's hard not to follow the flock when it's in your face 24 7, 365 BUY NOW! NOW WITH BLA BLA TECHNOLOGY! NEW IMPROVED WITH ADDED BLA BLA! IT'S WHAT YOU DESERVE, YOU ARE NOT A NUMBER! THE INDIVIDUALS CHOICE! I T' S J U S T S O M U C H C R A P ! ! !

I spent 20 years as a Marketing Director working worldwide in the recreation and resale business. You couldn't be any more accurate! We have become a nation of materialistic consumers thanks to many in the marketing field - and, yes, I too am guilty of selling bigger, better, faster, improved products and services to consumers. I'm now paying my pennance as a social worker and financial counselor working with military families taken in by marketing spin doctors.

Our minimally acceptable lifestyles now include the expectation that we'll have a two or three car garage, fireplace, garbage disposal, wall-to-wall carpeting or hardwood floors, crown moulding, dual pane windows, cell phones, video games, lavish vacations, blue tooth video, high-def televisions, cordless phones, hobby cars, cruise control, power windows and door locks, heated car seats, spas, massages, gym memberships, etc.

Our parents and grand parents had none of these things. The average home has grown from under 1000 square feet in the 1950s to over 2,200 square feet now. Most Americans would never consider living in a home with only one bathroom like our parents had. Like most homes in the 1950s, I grew up in a home with a one car garage, no laundry room, no air conditioning, no central heat, and my brother and I shared a bedroom. We were thrilled that we had an above ground swimming pool - now they're laughed at.

Give up all that crap and see how cheaply you can live! I am supporting my family of 4 (all of us are adults) on about $1,600 per month. This is by choice...I have no cell phone, I have no plasma television or surround sound, or other things that waste my money. I have no outstanding debt, so I can live really, really cheaply. I still have my computer (multiple years old), I have DSL and go out to eat to a nice restaurant weekly (just like my parents did back in the 1950s). It can be done. It isn't sacrifice - it is freedom!

I don't fault a single person for belonging to a union, but I do fault union leadership for pushing unrealistic expectations on businesses. By the same token, I don't fault the corporate CEOs either. Sure some CEOs and some Union leaders are greedy, self-serving money grubbers, but aren't we all to one extent or another? We all want a better life! However, as you cast stones at those "greedy CEOs", keep in mind that these are the same people that were being touted as heros when stock prices were high and divendeds were being paid out.

So, what is better, Fiat partnering with Chrysler, or Fiat coming back into the US as an independent brand? I believe Fiat joining with Chrysler. They'll have a broader product line, repeat service and parts business from all the Chrysler line, can establish the Fiat brand as a quality product, and can utilize the market research and acumen from Chrysler's marketing division. The partnership can benefit from both brand-loyal customers and those seeking a new alternative to the cookie-cutter cars of the Japanese and American companies.

So, in the words of a former marketing executive "Go out and buy a new, bigger, better and improved Chrysler product built by one of the oldest and most trusted names in European economy cars - Fiat...the new face of Chrysler...on sale soon in a showroom near you."







In my home town in California, the median priced home is now $199,000, down from over $350,000. That hurts! But guess what, I can buy a home just like my parents raised me in for under $100,000 in California.

[frankbmg]

Here's a little fuel to the fire. A retired GM employee passed away in his 90's. He worked for GM for 30 years, he collected a pension with full benefits for almost 45 years. It's not so much the hourly rate more so the benefits package. With benefits it brings the hourly rate in the $80-$90 range. I worked for GM dealers for 25+ years. That has always been an issue. Unions were a good thing 75 years ago today there are laws to protect workers.
Frank

[jimincalif]

time for a revolt?
http://taxdayteaparty.com/
http://www.teaparty2.org/

Notice how the news never mentions these protests. Thank god for you tube.

I am going to the Tax Day Tea Party in Orange County Ca on 4/15. Here is a link to a picture of the poster I will be carrying:

http://images8.cafepress.com/product/36 ... _Front.jpg

Saw a picture of someone carrying this in the Orlando Tea Party, had to have it. It arrived in the mail yesterday.

[spiderrey]

i know you can buy a house in some areas for as little as $100,000.00 now. you can do that where i used to live. i didnt buy mine at the peak, so it went up in value, then came back down. i dont think its gone down much past what i paid, im hoping. its a nice area.

[So Cal Mark]

wow, a very wide scope of ideas and opinions. Remember, GM and Chrys went to the US govt and asked for money. They weren't seized.
As for the constitution, Obama hasn't trampled it the way Bush and Co did, although he is continuing too many of Ws' policies. As for spending tax dollars, I'd rather see it supporting US companies that spent destroying other countries and people.
Why would Fiat buy any Chrys assets after bankruptcy? The only thing they need from Chrys is a dealer network. It's unrealistic to think Fiat will ever come back on their own. They could never establish a dist network starting from scratch. Fiat is in cash trouble also, shutting factories and asking for Italian govt help. They don't have the resources to re-enter the US market on their own, much less compete with Toyota, Honda, etc

[kuhndg]

Pretty interesting stuff! GM closed a plant about 25 miles from me in Janesville, Wi in January. The population there is about 60,000 people. GM employed about 2600 people at that plant alone. The fallout from that closing affected other jobs as well. Lear who made interior parts for GM, shut their plant down as well. As well as many others. In all, an estimated 4000 jobs were lost. At this point, I don't care about union or non union....I can see the pros and con's for both. Question I have is this, how in the hell are we going to take care of, and defend this country in the future? The very thing that made this country what it is "industrial revolution"... Is now falling to its own demise. Are we going to buy our tanks from China? What is our future? Are we all clerks selling goods made in other countries? What will the average wage be when all of the manufacturing jobs are gone? I have a furniture business, there are very few American companies left! Most of the textile mills have shut down except for a couple. Most of the furniture on my Floor is either made in China, or has parts that come from China. Most of the Upholstery companies have the covers cut and sewn in China, then shipped back to the States for final assembly. What direction are we going? I agree with others on this thread, for the first time i too, am scared! But one thing I know for sure....Obama's spending habits are worse than my ex wife's were, and spending money we don't have ain't gonna fix anything...just going to make it worse!!

[Kevin1]

Why would Fiat buy select assets if Chrysler goes into bankruptcy? Good question.

Fiat shareholders are probably asking themselves the same question. Why would anyone hook up with an American car company being kept alive by massive infusions of federal money? Building a venture already floating on federal cash, of course, is part of the answer. The rest of the answer involves securing salvage rights. Assuming the deal is approved by the U.S. Treasury Department, Fiat becomes the second biggest stakeholder in Chrysler after Cerberus Capital Management, the firm that bought Chrysler from Daimler Ag in 2007 and took it private. Cerberus' stake would then drop to 45% from 80%.

Cerberus is a private equity investment firm with no clue how to run a car company. That puts Fiat in pole position for a run at Chrysler's assets in the event it tumbles into bankruptcy, a distinct possibility. In other words, with no cash in the deal, Fiat could end up with Chrysler's North American distributorship. It could also get first dibs on Jeep, the one Chrysler brand industry analysts believe has value.

Meanwhile, at Cerberus, there is hope that Fiat's legacy of building small, affordable cars can jump start their limping investment. Similar sentiment is probably heard at Daimler headquarters in Stuttgart, Germany. Daimler is still in the game with the 20% stake in Chrysler it couldn't shake off when it sold Chrysler to Cerberus.
Any success from the Fiat venture could conceivably give Daimler a chance to ditch the rest of its holdings in Chrysler at something slightly better than break-up prices.

So the race is on. For Chrysler, it's a race to retool its product line, qualify for further federal funding by making more fuel-efficient cars, and keep itself a step ahead of bankruptcy long enough to build a viable business.
But Fiat already looks like the winner in this deal, piggybacking on federal funding to gain a bigger foothold in the U.S. And if its new partner crashes anyway, it's got a good shot at being first in line to scavenge the most valuable parts from the wreckage, namely Jeep branded manufacturng capablility and Chryslers' North American distribution network.

[So Cal Mark]

Chrysler has a very low public opinion and it's sinking even lower with bankruptcy talks With them needing billions to keep the doors open, any assets would be questionable. Fiat needs the dealer network, but there may not be much left of it by the time the cars hit the shores here. With the American public very aware that the new cars are really Italian, there could be "buy American" backlash by the time the Fiats arrive. Every news media report I've heard also derides Fiats' reputation in this country, which won't help sell cars either. The Fiats and rebadged cars that are sold here are going to have to be more reliable, have better performance and be price competitive with the Japanese and Korean cars or they won't have much market share. And if the Chrysler dealers don't embrace the Fiats it will all fall apart rapidly. Chrysler killed Alfa here, but it's the only option for Fiat to re-enter the US